Dr. C. Nicole Mason: The Past, Present & Future of Pay Equity & Policy

ON THIS EPISODE OF HIGH GROWTH MATTERS

June 10th marks the 60th anniversary of the signing of the Equal Pay Act, and if we’ve learned anything during these past six decades, it’s that getting to pay equity requires more than time and patience. It requires dedicated activism and leadership, qualities that are embodied by Dr. C. Nicole Mason, our guest for Episode 41 of the High Growth Matters podcast.

Selected as one of Fortune magazine’s World’s 50 Greatest Leaders in 2021, Dr.Mason’s research and work has influenced policy outcomes and public attitudes at the intersection of race, class, and gender for over two decades. The author, columnist, and Georgetown lecturer joined us to truth-tell about the state of pay equity, women in the workplace, and policy — as well as about the topic of her second book, which she’s currently writing.

Join us as we discuss:

What supporting women in the workforce really looks like;
The truth about what’s required to bring about change (and how pay transparency plays a role);
The forward-looking policies and tools necessary to take us there.

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE

TRANSCRIPT

Caitlin Robertson

Throughout her career, C. Nicole Mason's research has had such a deep influence on policy outcomes and public attitudes about the intersection of race, class and gender that in 2021 Fortune Magazine named her one of the world's 50 greatest leaders. Nicole is an author, columnist and Georgetown lecturer, and she joins us today to truth tell about the state of pay equity, women in the workplace and policy as well as the topic of her 2nd book which she is currently writing. Nicole, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

Thank you so much for having me. This is really exciting.

Nancy Connery

Welcome, Nicole. We're thrilled to have you.

Caitlin Robertson

So, Nicole, let's start off with the first question that we asked all of our guests, which is a personal way of getting to know you a bit. What is something that those who you have worked with don't usually know about you.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

That I really, really love and follow pop culture. So I know a lot about pop culture. I love page six. I love the news. But more importantly, I know who's doing what, what's going on, and it just sort of keeps me grounded and it's a fun way to connect. And it's something that I think like in a conference setting where it's all policy all the time. To bring up something about Rihanna, or Serena Williams. Now she's just pregnant. You know, it's fun.

Nancy Connery

I like that little fact. We'll have to have a little conversation one day about pop culture. But in the meantime, let's go back to the beginning and you know what inspired you? You know, to start your amazing journey from nothing to something, which is a phrase actually in your first book's title,ith a career in research and policy which has been so groundbreaking and instrumental.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

So I grew up in Los Angeles, CA and I was raised by a single mother and we pretty much lived in our community and we didn't go outside of it. So the first time I ventured out was when I went to Washington, DC for college, and there I had language for my experiences. I learned about poverty, I learned about inequality for the first time and I just knew then that's what I wanted to do, and I didn't know that I was gonna do it, I thought I was gonna be a lawyer and make change that way. And you know, I didn't go to law school. I founded a nonprofit organization and women's advocacy policy organization when I was like 20, 21 right after I graduated college. That's a long story over good drinks. Then I decided to get my PhD because I really wanted to tell the story of women and people in my community in a way that was honest. I had validity. I thought with a PhD I have credibility because I would go to conferences, really big policy conferences in Washington, DC and there would be no women, very few women and very few people of color. So now I've been doing this work. It's been about 23 years and it's been awesome.

Caitlin Robertson

That's amazing. What would you say given your vantage point now, I'm sure this will change throughout your life,but which of your impactful contributions matter the most to you right now? And if you had to assess what you think has had the biggest impact on date, what would you say that is?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

I really think it's my writing. I thought about this the other day. I do a lot of different kinds of writing so, you know, opinion editorial. I can write memoirs. I can write think pieces and do really deep research and I think it's really a gift. And so a couple years ago I started to say I think for a living that's what I really do, I really spend a lot of time and contemplation of a lot of big ideas, big strategies, big solutions and so what I've really enjoyed about my work and my research is really being able to shape a narrative to be able to interject a different perspective and a topic that people think they know really well.

Caitlin Robertson

Yeah, that power of storytelling, really, it can carry forward in a really powerful way because it's so personal and it's also globalat the same time.

Nancy Connery

Yeah. And next step, we'd love to dig in a little deeper in terms of pay equity and women in the workplace, obviously something very near and dear to all of us. You know, we're familiar with the fact that graduating females expect approximately $6000 less than graduating males, that is pretty well known and widely broadcast fact these days. Now what is the state of pay equity in the workplace and specific to this example, what does supporting women look like as they enter the workforce?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

So when I think about the pay gap or pay equity, one of the things that really makes me upset or you know, I don't know if it makes me want to dig in a little bit deeper, is that this gap continues to persist even as women have made gains educationally. We know that women can run Fortune 500 companies. We’re super competent. The pay gap still persists and so what that tells me is that there's not a lot that women can do themselves to close and accelerate the pay gap. It's really on employers. It's really up to us to address structural and institutional barriers to women, women's access to opportunity. And it is also to be really transparent about what the real issues are, and it's not women's competency. It's not our ability. People blame the pay gap on women off ramping in their careers and all of these other issues are not being able to negotiate effectively, but even if we hold those things consistently the pay gap still persists.

Caitlin Robertson

And that's actually a really great transition to the next question Nicole,because you coined the term “she session” during the pandemic to capture this idea that a number of women were being forced out of the workplace. And so I'm curious in that context, what does supporting women in the workforce look like regardless of their life stage, really through the lens of what you were just talking about if that's not necessarily being something that's just in women's hands.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

So what does it look like for me in the workforce? I think a few things. I think that women in the workforce need choices, whether or not they want to climb the corporate ladder, or work 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week or work flexibly or off ramp to start a family. Women need to have those choices and those choices shouldn't mean sacrificing pay, not being compensated fairly. So right now, women have constrained choices. They don't really have a lot of choices. So they say women leave the workforce voluntarily. But if your workplace isn't flexible, if they don't respect the fact that you have to leave at 5:00 o'clock to pick up your children from school,that's really not a choice. So for me, when I think about women in the workplace, I, you know, I really think it comes down to choices and those choices being really expensive and rooted in the experiences of women. And so what that means for me on a bigger level is that workplaces need to really think about what might a workplace look like that helps women thrive in their careers and outside of work as well. And I don't think we've done that.

Nancy Connery

I would agree with that having seen that in numerous different organizations, sadly so, you know, and in your own experience, how have women lifted you up most in your career?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

There's all these stories about women not supporting one another or not being there for one another, and one of the things I like to say is that well, whenever I'm having a problem, the person across the table or on the other line is usually another woman. And not only is she providing direct support, but she's also being able to reflect my feelings and my experiences and also help me to strategize. And that's been, from everything when I'm applying for a job or being interviewed to when I'm exiting out of a job. Women have really been there, other women have really been there and been supportive.

Nancy Connery

Female bond. Immeasurable.

Caitlin Robertson

That's really well said. So switching gears to talk about policy. Nicole, I like this question because I think it will get at the heart of a lot of what we've been talking about so far. What is a popular belief about policy that you passionately disagree with given your deep expertise.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

That change just happens. That eventually we will get where we want to get, whether it's closing the pay gap, equal pay for equal work, paid sick leave. We'll eventually get there. It'll just take some time, with the things that we've been doing, whether it's writing legislation, lobbying the Hill and I'm here to say that that's not true. It's at this moment, it's going to take a little bit more than that. It's gonna take us pushing, cajoling, confronting, holding those we elect accountablein new ways so that we can actually accelerate progress. Like the pay gap hasn't closed, it's only closed $0.20 in about 50 years. That's glacial to me. So in order for us to accelerate progress, I do think we need new strategies and tactics because the old way of thinking, the incremental progress, the incremental policy work, it's just not getting us where we want to eventually end up.

Nancy Connery

Yeah. So it's clear we have a lot of work we need to do and when it comes to pay equity policy some things have worked. So what in your opinion has had the most impact in closing the gap, again completely acknowledging we have a lot of work to do, but what has helped us with some steps forward?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

So what I really liked lately, or the last couple of years, is pay transparency laws and those have been really effective in helping companies understand the gender pay gap or the pay equity in general, and then helping them, allowing them the opportunity to correct. And it also helps workers, women workers understand where they stand relative to others in their companies. And so that's this data and information. And I like that it's becoming the law in many states, and also what I really like to see is that as more states begin to pass laws like this and they're implemented, it shows other states that it it doesn't hurt small businesses when you have paid transparency laws, it's actually it actually helps and supports workers and soI'm really encouraged by paid transparency laws and also by this part of transparency as well, making sure that people are posting salary bands on job postings and job listings. And I was reading an article the other day and it said that younger people refuse to even apply for a job if the salary band is not listed and that you know that wasn't the casenot even I would say, not even five years ago.

Caitlin Robertson

Yeah, that's a really big change and I think we're just getting started too because the states that hopefully will be the tipping point of who stood up this year, so to speak, within the last 12 months, we've got New York, we've got California, we've got Colorado and Seattle and Washington, and my hope is that that's something that really starts to become more status quo.

So one of the things that we talked about in our prep call Nicole related to pay transparency legislation and these laws is the fact that employees understandably have a lot more questions and generally employees come to their manager instead of HR with those questions about pay even though HR is technically the one that perhaps has the training or the expertise to really handle some of those conversations and it puts a lot of the onus on that people manager to handle those ad hoc conversations, those merits cycle conversation. And so my question for you is, is that pressure that pay laws put on managers, is it fair and you know our listeners are mostly people leaders and natural leaders and what do they need to do in order to empower their managers?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

One of the things I really think that is effective in addressing issues of pay transparency is having compensation schemes or plans that are very clear so that employers and employees understand how people based on their educational background, with their role, their title, how everyone's being compensated. So you democratize pay and if you're coming into a company, we had a compensation scheme that was by education. We're using an educational attainment framework. So before people were applying to job and and even if we we had a range posted, but you could click on our compensation scheme and say with this level of education this many years of experience, this is what I can expect to pay and what that does I feel is it takes the hand, it takes the power out of the hands of hiring managers who are doubly charged, they're charged with attracting the the best talents that they can find, but also protecting the bottom line of the company. And so with the compensation scheme, there's no negotiation, because we know for a fact that when women and people of color negotiate, they sometimes earn less. Or, you know it doesn't work out for them. And so this is one of the ways to equalize or democratize pay.

Caitlin Robertson

It takes it from art to science. I really like that.

Nancy Connery

Yeah, it also takes a huge burden off the hiring managers like you said, and I think some great steps forward. What principles have guided your approach to influencing policy that we can all use in this fight? And what do you want the future of policy to hold for those you love so nearly and dearly, you know, especially your twins.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

When I really think about this work and you know, I read a lot and I was reading today about being guided by your passion and the kind of change you really want to see in the world, and like letting that be your North Star. And that's always been the case since you know having a full circle moment since I started this work 20 years ago when I was a young college student. It was really about believing and thinking it, thinking that changed. Specifically, gender equity was possible, and I do think it's still possible, but what I'm less optimistic about is that we're not using the right tools and strategies to get us there. We're using the same tools and strategies and expecting different outcomes and expecting change to happen, and so, in this moment I'm hoping that we can use our radical imagination to think about new ways and new approaches to solving these really seemingly impenetrable problems.

Caitlin Robertson

Which is probably a tip for my next question as we close the conversation out. So you're currently taking time away from what I think most people refer to as the 9:00 to 5:00. But I imagine given the around the clock nature of policy work it is more like 5 to 9, to write another book and you described it in our prep call and what felt very inspiring to me about truth telling of how we can do big and bold things so we don't have the same conversation 20 years from now, which is somewhat of what you were just alluding to. So I'm curious to understand Nicole and I don't mean to give away the context of your book, but what does truth telling mean to you today and what are you looking forward to, you know, 10-20 years out, what changes are you most hoping to see given a new approach?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

What's amazing is that I have felt like I've done this work with about two or three generations of leaders, and when I think about my own work and my own journey, I think about the kind of impact I want to have and the kind of leader I wanna be and what I want to leave behind. And what I've decided is that the thing that I want to leave behind is the truth. The truth in that to say that while we have made some progress, we still have a very long way to go and these are the reasons why we're not making more progress and this is how we might think about this work differently. And so it's a road map. It's an invitation. It's an inspiration. It's generating new thinking and new ideas about how we might get to where we want to get. I don't want to be after I'm done with this work and the next generation picks up this work and I think my daughter and my son for them to be spinning their wheels trying to figure out how to do this work and make a meaningful impact. And so I'm just hoping to leave a little bit of something that again starts the conversation in a new place and gives us new tools and new ways of thinking about these very, very old problems.

Nancy Connery

I think you're going to leave a little more than a little something. And I'm a little sad to see our podcast come to closure, and we've loved chatting with you today. We kind of start and end on the same note for consistency and with that what should we all remember most from what you have said today to us and our listeners?

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

I didn't really say this a lot, but one of the things that I've been thinking about in my work and how I approach this work, and it's maybe tied to pop culture [I referenced] in the beginning, is that this work is about joy. It's about life and not taking myself so seriously all the time. And to, you know, being able to bring my full self into the work which you know, because these are very serious topics, you don't often get to do that. And so figuring out how we might integrate our whole selves into this work, and then by extension, you know, allowing each of us as we go about and do this workin our own ways.

Caitlin Robertson

Wonderful note to end on Nicole. Thank you so much for being here.

Nancy Connery

Thank you, Nicole, we could just talk to you for hours.

Dr. C. Nicole Mason

Thank you. Thank you for having me, I really appreciate it. It's been such a great conversation.