The State of Compensation in Q4 2022

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TRANSCRIPT

CAITLIN ALLEN: Welcome, everyone. So excited to talk to you today about the state of compensation in q4 2022. We are diving deep into quarter over quarter quarter changes in the landscape as it relates to compensation between q3 and q4 2022 with data that is represented from October 1 to December 31 of that same year. Joining us today are two deep experts Ashley Brounstein senior people, a senior director of people at OpenComp is joining us back by popular demand after several webinars and podcasts in 2022. She's had a stellar career at high growth companies like red fin and D two IQ before joining us. Jason White is joining us for the first time, he's a principal compensation consultant at OpenComp has had more than three decades of compensation expertise, and we'll lend them to our really insightful discussion today. And quickly, quickly covering off on some of the information, the demographic information behind these trends before we dive into them, the data that was analyzed that's being presented to you today represents over 4000 companies, and 75,000 employees across 18 industries, and the company's themselves in revenue, both private and public, everywhere from under a million to more than 250 million in revenue. So really a broad swath here represented, we'll be going through the top seven trends that we think you need to know about in q1 2023, that will really likely shape the entire year this year, or at least kick us off. And if you want to download the full report, you can do so at opencomp.com/23-compensation-trends-for-2023. With a dash between each of those words, I didn't even pause to say Ashley and Jason welcomes. I'll do that now. Thank you so much for joining us.

JASON WHITE: Thanks, Caitlin.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Thanks, Caitlin.

JASON WHITE: Happy New Year.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Gonna be a good conversation. All right. So as we talk about the seven trends to watch, there are 23 in total in the report, these are the seven that we think are the top ones that you need to know, this year, this quarter as you think about retention, as you think about keeping costs down as you think about navigating economic uncertainty. And, Ashley, let's kick off with you on on that topic. I started to allude to it there and some of what I just said. But why is knowing the following seven trends is going to be really important right now for people leaders in the environment we're currently in?

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Well, I think that what we're seeing right now is very similar to what we saw on in 2021, COVID. Hit right, we're gonna see people hanging on a little bit longer, we're going to see people that are nervous to make changes in their, in their jobs, we're also going to see needs change, what matters to them is probably going to change as well over the course of the next year. And however long this soap recession may last. And so for employers, we need to figure out what is it now that's going to make people engaged because you don't want people to stay with you just because you're free to go find another job. So we need to find ways to engage with them, and reward them that is going to keep them performing, hitting our business goals. And making sure that that really, the business doesn't suffer just because you have people who are too afraid to leave. And so I think that these trends, especially around compensation are interesting because people don't have the cash they had last year. So think about getting into merit increases this year. Are people doing that still? In 2020? I am I my where I was in 2020, we pulled merit, we had approved numbers, we're getting ready to hit Send to managers saying Go have conversations with your team, yay. When we made the decision to say we're not doing it this year. Right. So I think that there's lots of conversations right now with businesses and HR leaders about what does that look like in 2023. And so knowing what these trends are, and how people are rewarding and what makeups look like, it's gonna be really important to leaders this year.

CAITLIN ALLEN: That's really, really well said. And in particularly because compensation is the largest area of spend it is getting a lot of scrutiny at the moment as we look at a different economy than we were in last year at this time. Jason, anything you would add there?

JASON WHITE: Yeah, I just continue on to what what Ashley was saying there is a lot of uncertainty, especially towards the end of this year. A lot of companies that I've worked with, you know, on merit, they're like, Well, what did we do? We don't have the cash but yet we're in this historically, hyper inflationary environment. So the dollar is going a lot, you know, prices are going up. It's a lot harder for our employees and a lot of them you know, kind of need re is to support their families and their lifestyle. So it's kind of a very difficult place for companies to be and torn between this kind of cash poor position, yet this inflationary environment. So it's going to be very interesting going into 2023, to see how companies respond to this.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Well, sad lots, lots of tension. So getting into our first trend, that we have seen, through our data in our platform, that 70% of organizations have formal pay ranges. And our reading between the lines, so to speak, is that pay transparency is really driving the use of pay ranges. And let's maybe start off with with you, Jason, how have we seen this percentage increase over the last few quarters? And years?

JASON WHITE: Yeah, it came when this number has certainly increased. I'd say rather dramatically over the past few years. I mean, we've known that this legislation has been coming for for several years now, in both California and New York, and now other states are, are, you know, enacting legislation. So we've known that's been coming. So the companies that have really been at the forefront of, you know, being kind of woke in terms of their compensation, they have spent the time to develop compensation philosophies, and to develop pay ranges. So we're seeing this now, kind of in the numbers come to fruition. And I expect, you know, as we move forward into this year, and 2024, we'll see this number increase.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I imagine everyone listening knows this, but just setting the stage in case if you don't know some of the details, we saw a lot of change in the pay transparency legislation landscape. Last year, New York City instituted the requirement that pay ranges, salary ranges needed to be included in job postings as of November 1 in 2022, California and Washington followed suit January 1 of this year, they're joining other municipalities like Chicago and states like Colorado and that requirement. Many have long required that companies cannot ask what employees or candidates have made in previous rules. And then several innovators like California are actually starting to require this year that pay day to be reported into the state. So actually, I think some of the implications are fairly obvious, and others are not as much what what are the implications of this data in your opinion?

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Well, one, I think it's so dangerous to that 30% That doesn't have pay ranges. When you think about we're not in this really, we're not in a growth environment anymore. So sure, you might not be doing a ton of hiring right now, where you're concerned about the job postings. But in the state of California, if you're asked by your employees, what's my salary range? You're supposed to get that? If you don't have the answer to that, what does that do, again, for the employees that are staying with you today? And I just think that that is that is a big mistake. And so I would urge anyone right now, who doesn't know how to get started? You know, take a look at open comm if you have gotten started, but aren't sure of like your next steps, like, you've got to start training your managers on how to have conversations around on salary bands, you've got to be ready for some of those questions. And it can be a slow, phased approach. But it's it's very dangerous to me to not have those app open calm. We're not 100 employees, which means we don't have to do our pay reporting. Right. But we are a compensation company. And so we're prepared to have those conversations right with the team members. So if you're under 100 employees, yes, you may not in the state of California may not have those reporting obligations. But it doesn't mean that you're off the hook, if you're not hiring from from having these conversations and being prepared to educate your team and share information on pay ranges. So very dangerous to me.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Yeah, makes a ton of sense. And I think you through the lens, for instance of penalties, companies can very quickly rack up hundreds of 1000s of dollars that they need to pay in penalties if they're not compliant with with this legislation. And I also think there's a lot of maybe less quantifiable immediately quantifiable penalties that could come down the pike if they're not careful to your point, you know, employee demands are very related to pay transparency. Their expectation really is that transparency is something that employers can offer. And to your point, they're probably not going to go to HR first, they're probably going to go to their manager and so equipping managers doing roleplay where they giving them talking points, educating them to be able to have those conversations is really going to be I think what divides the the leader Spend the laggards.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: There's one other thing that I want to say about the salary ranges, I mean, shame on some of these companies who were just checking the box to say that they've added a salary range. You know, I've seen some job postings where to say, a UI designer, senior UI designer starting salary is $90,000. And it goes up to $600,000. That is just gaming the system so that you can say that you've done it. And I just I, again, maybe don't have pay ranges. And maybe that's why you're putting this really broad spectrum out there. But you are losing trust a future hires, and you are losing trust of your existing employees, because they know what you're doing. Right. So my two cents there.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Yeah, yeah, valuable two cents, as it relates to what you're alluding to common mistakes, right, having pay ranges that are too wide. And and there's a host of other common mistakes that companies tend to make, often unintentionally, when they're developing and rolling out pay ranges. What are some of those common mistakes and and so we'll start with you. And, Jason, I'd love your thoughts on this too, because you're you're obviously an expert here. 

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: I think, at least in the hiring process, often what I'll see as mistake is you will say, and I'm going to make this up right now, but I need a marketing operations manager. And you start drafting job description and you say it is a level ice floor and you put your mark there and you look at your your your job range, and you say this is it and then you start getting down the path of actually interviewing folks, and you find out your job range does not match. Maybe everyone else is saying a different and it's a higher number. A common mistake that I'm seeing there is what did you write the job description, right? Is that really what you need? Did you level the job appropriately? Or are you just getting so excited about candidates that you're seeing that you're actually picking folks who are elevated above what you need, and that's why there's a mismatch. So I see that often is a mistake. Also having the Rob I'm sorry, wrong job family that you're benchmarking the role against is another big mistake. So for marketing operations, probably not picking a brand design brand design, right as your job family you're benchmarking against. And so I think making sure that one, you're benchmarking appropriately, and then to when you are going out and having conversations about salary ranges, that you're actually appropriately matching the level, even if it's internal, you know, take a look at your leveling framework that you're using right now with your team, and making sure that you've got people appropriately mapped. So that when you're having conversations, again, about their level, and job range, and tying those together, it's accurate.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Great, call out. Jason, I would love to hear what you've add there. And one thing in particular, I want to make sure that we touch on too is that the misconception between assuming market data is enough, if you simply slap on 10 or 15,000, on either side of a median. If there's anything else, please feel free to add, but I definitely want to talk about that too.

JASON WHITE: Yeah, well, yeah, my point is a little bit towards that, I'd say one of the major things that I see companies doing, not necessarily wrong, but backwards is putting the cart before the horse and, you know, coming up with ranges very hastily, and not going through the process, which we advise companies to do a really developing a compensation philosophy, having having a very meaningful, in depth conversation with your leadership, with your management, and deciding, hey, where where do we as an organization, want to target our pay, right? So we want to be kind of up here in the 75th percentile? Do we want to look at, you know, just software service companies? Or do we want to have a broader universe? So it's really having that calm philosophy in place and articulated before you go out and start to build these ranges?

CAITLIN ALLEN: Yeah. 100%. All right, great. Well, let's move on to Trend number two. So the second trend is that leaders get the greatest share of equity at an organization, whether those are very early stage organizations, or later state driven public companies, we found that 75% of equity is reserved for mostly management and executives, as well as top performers. And you can see kind of that multiple here on the screen of, you know, entry level versus a supervisor, there's about a 2x difference than when you go from, you know, even like a supervisor to a senior director, you're looking at a 3x difference the difference between senior director VP, there's more than a 2x difference, the difference between VPS VP and C suite gets gets really, really market where on the basis points, you're, you're seeing something that's 1.5x between VP and SVP and then for C suite, a difference of above 4x. So do you is in sync question in terms of historical trends? I can't imagine this varies a ton. But I am particularly interested to hear how it does it compare with prior years or two, because we've had a lot of volatility in the market in the last couple of years. And equity is often a way to sweeten the pie.

JASON WHITE: would say that this has gone up slightly. You know, I think companies now we're in an environment, certainly an investment environment, which is not as favorable as it was a couple of years ago. So there's this this notion where there's always been a notion, but I think now, it's a little more sharp and that that equity, it's not this, just like cash, it's not this inexhaustible resource that we could just throw out and grant to hire people and promote people. So, you know, I've seen over the last few years, kind of that equity being kind of funneled in more thoughtfully, and that's really giving it to your top performers, right, giving it to your your key executives that are driving the business. And we're seeing less fewer companies certainly have this peanut butter approach, where everybody's getting equity every year, you're getting a refresh. You know, it's a more thoughtful application of this, you know, exhaustible resource,

CAITLIN ALLEN: well said, the high performers and management and executives are arguably the ones that are shaping the company the most. So that that corollary of value implicitly makes a bit of sense, actually, I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts and perspectives are related to this trend.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Look, when I think about managers, the their ability to engage to motivate to help us hit our goals, the impact that they have on the business is tremendous. Right? Our success is dependent on their ability to turn on their team. And so I'm not surprised at all to see this. I think it's really I think that it's, it's, it's the perfect reflection, of rewarding our hard working managers and management. And also, you know, as you get more senior in the IC levels, like this is exactly what I would expect. You know, you've got some really superstar doesn't mean that you're superstars aren't on an icy three. Right. But the more senior that you get, the more valuable and the more expertise that you bring. And so seeing this, it's it's very aligned with what I would expect. 

CAITLIN ALLEN: Great. Any shifts that either of you anticipate in this area in the coming year?

JASON WHITE: No, I see this being fairly, fairly consistent over the next year.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Yeah, I'll say I'll probably agree with that. You know, one of the things is I hear from managers and leaders, sometimes, well, equity is free. So we'll just give lots of equity away instead. And sure, it's free, but there are consequences to how you, you know, Jason, you mentioned the peanut buttering there are consequences as to how you deliver that equity, the equity packages. So I am curious to see if we, if we do see a trend, where there's more equity going out, maybe across the board, but I think it's not going to exactly move the needle from what we're seeing here.

JASON WHITE: Yeah, good point. No, yeah, I will add that, from my experience, I think the investors that are putting the money behind these companies, you they're becoming a little more active in terms of well, how are how are we spending this money, you know, the cash as well as the equity, and they're becoming more involved in distributing that that resource, the equity, you know, it's not a case of like, Here's your check. Here's your equity, go to equity pool, go spend it, you know, how you see fit, there's more involvement on the part of investors than than I've seen in the past few years.

CAITLIN ALLEN: The distribution of equity has big implications for them, too. So that does make a lot of sense. Anecdotally, some of the trends that I've seen at the executive level is some innovation around different vesting schedules for for high impact roles. So that's something I've kind of seen sporadically over the last couple of years, maybe there's an accelerated investing cliff or head of sales or something along those lines. But I think your your anticipation that the this is going to remain largely the same makes a lot of sense to me. The other thing I'll call out before we move on that Jason actually think I learned from you is something that a lot of companies forget as folks near their four years at a company where they're technically near the end of that original allotment of equity is some companies realized at that point that they've forgotten to budget to redistribute additional EQ So that's something just for those listening in, make sure that that's on your, your long term horizon. All right, trend three. So this is going to be no surprise in some respect to folks. Total payroll rises as companies grow. What I think was interesting to me on this particular trend is how much companies increase their payroll, between about 50 million to 75 million in funds raised. Jason, how do these numbers compare with what we've seen before? And why do we think that this trend is what it is?

JASON WHITE: Yeah, it's interesting, you kind of see this kind of gradual step up from from the earlier stages. And then you know, at that 50 to 75 million, you see kind of this, this huge step up, you know, about triple, and then you see, again, more of a gradual increase. And the, the story behind that is that that 50 to 75 million, it's really an inflection point, for a lot of companies, right, you've gotten, you've gotten some investors along the way, smaller amounts, right. But once you get to that 50 to 75 million, you've likely had a new round of funding, that has a significant amount of investment, right, that's really going to catapult you into that, that next stage. So really, before that 50 to 75 million, you know, you see a lot of companies, maybe they haven't quite yet found their their product market fit. You know, they might have smaller investors behind them. But once they kind of hit that stage, were 50 to 75 million, they're really kind of getting the big dollars behind them, they're getting investors that are highly interested in their product. And they're really kind of well on their way to, to really expanding and scaling the company. And seeing what where it can go. So I this makes a lot of sense to me, that see kind of that, that leap between that 25 to 50 and the 50 to 75.

CAITLIN ALLEN: It's right around where typically, I think Series B usually is you've achieved product market fit and you need to Yeah, and

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: it's, I'd say five years ago, that inflection point, it really probably was more that 25 to 50. But you know, we're in an environment now, or the the investors that are willing to back your company, you know, they're writing bigger checks now than than they were, you know, 510 years ago. So shifted up to that 50 to 75.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Sure. And actually, you've you've lived this transition due to IQ before anything you would add here.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: And what we're talking about product market fit, I think that's the biggest indicator here, right, you get your next round of funding, you might actually start to have some money coming in, right, you found a product and fake, you've got customers now. And so investors don't want you sitting on their money. They want you investing that back and doing hypergrowth. And so the biggest thing that you're going to do to invest your money is to hire build scale. And all of that is happening right at that mark. So this is again, really right on par with where it I would I would expect.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Great point. Which leads us to some of the following trends. A Trend number four is that non tech employees outnumber tech employees by an average mix of 60 to 40. Which is in some ways, not very surprising. But actually, let's kick off with you. What are your thoughts here? You know, in your experience of it, is this ring? True?

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Yep, absolutely. I mean, even at open comp, I ran the numbers, the end of q4 to see what we looked like it's an organization and we were at 33% tech employees, right, as a series a company. And so this is exactly what I would think, you know, we've got to keep the trains moving. You still have to have operations, you still have to have sales teams to go sell your product, you still need marketing to go market the product. And so while we might be tech companies and the technical roles really, you know, help build the product. There's nothing you can do without that, that support the support functions, right, and the sales and go to market team. So I think that this is is right where I've expected again, nothing really new there.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Makes a lot of sense. And Jason I can't imagine this has changed too much over time, but want to check in with you on that.

JASON WHITE: Yeah, no, I was about to say Caitlin, that historically. You know, this is a mix that we've seen consistently. Since I've been since I've been doing this

CAITLIN ALLEN: Trend number five. So doubling down on that technical that technical part of the organization engineers In some ways, unsurprisingly, make up the largest percentage of payroll, representing somewhere between a fourth to 1/3 of total payroll, regardless of total funds raised. And I think what's interesting is on the earlier stage here, for those who can't see the slide, you know, it peaks engineering, as a total percentage of payroll peaks, about 5 million to 10 million and company revenue, then there's a slight dip as you get closer to the 2550 75 million in revenue, and then it starts to rise again, and peak again, near that 100 million to 250 million in revenue bucket. Jason thoughts here on you know why this is and how this compares with something that we've seen over time.

JASON WHITE: Yeah, and again, you see that inflection point at the 50 to 75. Or it's been on a downtrend, and then it starts to creep up. And really the reasoning behind that, you know, you see that downtrend in the percent of engineering because those companies, they're probably adding on more non engineering positions, certainly more executives. So engineering is becoming kind of a smaller component. But you hit that inflection point that 50 to 75. And as Ashley said, you know, you run out, you want to scale the company, and a lot about scaling, the company is obviously engineering. So you start to see that number, creep up after that 50 to 75. So this, this makes a whole lot of sense to me. And then I, you know, probably that dip greater than 250. You know, I think at that point, the company is probably generating significant revenue, maybe profit, and, you know, most likely that product has been built out and scaled. And you know, we're seeing that number drop, because you probably don't need to hire a ton more of engineers, because you've got a great product, you know, it's working at scale. And you need, you know, you need staff to kind of mine the store, so to speak. So you're not on, you're not on as much of a huge hiring, surge in terms of engineers at that point.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: So anything you'd add here, the only comment that I would make is, we also have to remember that software engineers are high income earners, their skill set is one that is just severely lacking. We are not pumping out enough talent out of programs and whatnot to actually make up for the need in the workforce. Every company now is a tech company. Coca Cola, for God's sakes has engineers, right? So when you think about just the the talent shortage in these roles, and then you think about the fact that there are so many companies now that are tech companies and need that talent, we also have to remember just the the income that these folks are bringing in so to see it represented fourth to a third of total payroll not surprised at all.

CAITLIN ALLEN: That's actually a really good point that it that that kind of teases out the fact that the total percentage of payroll may not be total percentage of headcount, which is a good point. All right. Next trend also talks about engineers and relates a bit to what I was just saying, we found that Unsurprisingly, the more funding that a company has, the more engineers has, the company has and engineering headcount. So number of heads, not dollars, tends to double with each round of funding. What's interesting to me personally here, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this is truly like there's almost a double across every series stage, there's really no inflection point. At any of these represented seed Series A, B, C, or D. Anything that's worth pointing out here.

JASON WHITE: Yeah, I mean, I would point out that, you know, human capital, it's not really scalable, like, like a software product is so you know, in order in order to have the company operating here versus here, it's gonna take double the people, no matter how talented they are. So even for these these technical roles, these engineers, you know, they're not miracle workers, there's still one person doing doing one job. So this makes this makes a lot of sense. And, you know, it's inherent and just the whole nature of, of human beings and human capital that it's, it's to do twice as much, it's going to take twice, twice the amount of of talent.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: And the one comment that I'll add here is, I think about Series A, right you're trying to find your Product Market Fit series B, you probably have found it and now you're starting to grow really build out your product more in scale, right? So you're going to need more headcount, when I think about Series C, I'm actually surprised kind of to see it around 30, I would have actually expected that to be higher, that you know, around Series C, maybe you're starting to accumulate some tech debt, maybe it's time to start getting some release managers in place, maybe it's time to start scaling out your QA function, maybe that starts to happen around series D. So I think about all the things that you don't have the money and resources for an engineering to accomplish it series, A and B, that when you start to get into series, C, and D, and you've got customers, you've got a buggy products, all the reinvestment that you have throw back into engineering to make your solution complete, whole, holistic, etc. Great point.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Alright, rounding out with trends seven, we see that most companies have a geographic pay strategy 57%. In Jason, I know this isn't in on this slide. But I know that we saw a shift as well, from companies having an average number of four or five Gio tiers to two in the last year. Why is that shift happening?

JASON WHITE: Yeah, I mean, a lot of that's driven, obviously, by the pandemic, pandemic, you know, by the, the surge of the remote workforce, you know, and you see that a lot, when you look at kind of the cost of living across the United States, you know, it's become flatter. So for instance, in San Francisco versus other areas, there traditionally has been this, you know, massive, massive golf, right between, say, your biggest driver, your your rent your cost of living your housing. But but now we've seen that all over the country, it's, it's become flatter, which is interesting. And I expect that to continue. But that's why we're seeing kind of no longer the need to have four or five tiers, because you don't have this huge differential, it's flat arm. And indeed, if you look at you know, if you look at other countries, Canada is a good example. You know, geographically it's a much larger country than the United States. But you don't have these huge differentials in cost of living, say, between, you know, Montreal and Toronto, and Vancouver, it's fairly flat. And I expect that we're going to continue to see flattening in our country as well.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Go ahead, that, Jason and immediately my thought went to Austin, like what's happened in Austin, the increase in cost of living there. So I agree, I think we're gonna flatten I also think it's a lot for small teams to manage, if you have a four or five, tear geostrategy. And so I think in order to remain competitive, especially during the Great resignation, employers needed to rethink the competency. There's compensation strategies, especially with people who maybe we're in Silicon Valley or in more tech hubs, and decided during the pandemic to move into be closer to family, right, and Ohio as an example, or something like this. So in order to retain those folks, we needed to be competitive, and the job market was just so insane, right, and 2021 and the beginning of 2022, that having a two tier makes sense. And again, from an administration perspective, it just when you're an under resource team, it's easier to administer when you're not dealing with a bunch of different locations.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Yeah, there are solid points around needing to simplify administration. Actually, I'm wondering if there's any global nuances here that you would call out, I know, when you were, when COVID began, you were at a company that was global. What was that? Like? What, what? How did your organization respond from a geolocation perspective? You know,

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: Jason mentioned Canada, we were in Germany, and it's an example. And it's relatively the same. No matter where you live in Germany, whether you're in Berlin or Frankfurt, or you know, Homburg as an example, where we had an office, it's relatively flat. And so we didn't see a lot of meaning for change in that location. But if you go to the UK, you're in London, versus in the English countryside. Very big difference. Right. And I'm thinking, for us to remain competitive during that time. We still paid London prices, regardless of where you are. So it's all about how are you going to stand out from your competition? What levers can you pull and what what affordability too Does your company have when you're folding global like that?

CAITLIN ALLEN: Really good point. All right. Well, thank you both. This has been been really great. As we will have a final question to kind of close this out. But just a note for the audience. So this is seven of the 23 because this is our inaugural report. We did a lot of setting the stage here. Some of the other the other trends in the actual report get a little bit more to quarter record our changes. And you'll see more of that in our coming quarterly reports as well. But we felt it was important to really, like I said, create a foundation to build on. So that being said, I think in summary, what I have heard today, what I have heard from HR leaders on our podcast from our prospect base, our customer base is it's a new era for people teams, right? We're in a niche changing climate from a macroeconomic perspective, new generations entering the workforce, new legislation, and really like one size fits all doesn't, it doesn't apply anymore. And I'm not even referring to the size of your company or the industry that you're in. But I'm talking about every single employee, what's their career pathway? What does pay transparency mean for that particular person? And as as companies think about benchmarking their organization's compensation, creating compensation strategies, really attention is shifting to how do we create a consistent, equitable strategy and then deploy it consistently, right back to that point of managers? And then recruiters, how do we empower our teams to hire and promote and make adjustments to compensation in a way that is consistent, equitable and transparent. And I think as well, what my personal expectation is, and then I would love to close out with predictions from both of you, is that HR people, leaders are going to have an increasingly influential and increasingly strategic role for where organizations head as they think about strategy as they think about day to day decisions. And that the difference between that people executive who is a leader and a partner for that CEO, and that CFO, or someone that is kind of viewed as a weight, bringing other people down data is going to be the difference. difference there. So Jason, would love to hear what your prediction is a national, you can bring us home.

JASON WHITE: You know, my prediction is that HR compensation, it's, it's time it's ready for its close up. And, you know, traditionally me I've been in compensation a long time, you know, it's been an area that's always been shrouded in mystery, kind of, kind of in the dark. But now, I think the, you know, legislation, investors coming from board members, there's this sense that people want accountability, right, it's this is the largest spend, for most companies is compensation. So parties, they want to know, well, what how is that money being spent? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? So there's now there's light being shed upon this traditionally dark corner. And I think that's going to continue, and the of the companies that that kind of not only understand this, but are taking meaningful action towards, towards towards achieving, you know, clarity and transparency. You know, those are the companies that are gonna win the war for talent.

ASHLEY BROUNSTEIN: I love what you said about its, you know, compensation, scientists shine, couldn't agree more. I really do believe 2023, Zegers pay chance pay, pay transparency being part of me. And I think that there's two things. One, it's all the legislation that's happening in two, it is where we are in this economy. Right? So you've got such scrutiny about how we're spending money and compensation is the biggest area of spend, so you're gonna have scrutiny from your CEO, from your business partners, you're gonna have scrutiny from the board, about that spend, and then you've got this transparency on top of it that needs to happen. And so I do think that this is the year for companies to get it right. And those you know, to Jason's point, those who do get it right are going to succeed and those who who flounder and get it wrong or decide that they don't want to hop on board, the transparency wag wagon here, they're going to be left behind.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Love it. Thank you both so much. And to our audience, thank you for being here and listening. Just to close out again, if you want to access all 23 compensation trends, you can go to open comp.com/ 23 compensation trends for 2023 with a dash between each of those words after the slash. That's all for today. Have a wonderful rest of your day and we will see you back in a quarter with our next quarterly Trends Report.